Miles' take on burly-belly

You are a brave woman, Sharon, for posting this for discussion. ;-)

Incidenatlly, scrolling down to the links to other articles there is a 3 year old article about Belly-Burly written by the same performer that Miles mentions in his article:
gildedserpent.com/art32/PFB...squeBD.htm

My personal opinion is that I would prefer it if Burlesque dancers who are also Bellydancers kept their dance vocabulary and costume wardrobes completely separate.

This comes from my having had experience with a few people making assumptions that because I bellydance I also strip or do burlesque. One jerk -erm, "gentleman," even asked me if I do lap dances when I bellydance. I restrained myself from bitchslapping him and explained the difference as calmly as I could. I do not enjoy those conversations.

Interesting article, and certainly not the first time the discussion has come up. I typically favor the "be clear about whatever it is you're doing" approach... that is to say, if the show contains both burlesque and bellydance, don't just call it one or the other. But that's my own personal opinion.

One thing that made me laugh a bit: a "fascinator" (which Copeland referred to as "whatever that is") is a retro feather hair ornament, and not anything naughty as he seems to be implying. Google would have solved this problem.

If you mix the two then I think it would recieve a better audience at a burlesque event than a belly dance event. I DO know people who lament how crappy the dancing is at strip clubs, gentlemens clubs, etc. If a dancer wants to do it that's dandy... do it there. I would not welcome it advertised as such at a belly dance event.

~*Spoon*~

This "wink-n-nudge" attitude is also prevalent in the massage therapy world. I worked for several years as the team massage therapist for a pro-hockey team and you wouldn't beLIEVE (well... maybe you would) how many low-class, trailer-trash-mentality women (and a few men, ugh!) had the unmitigated GALL to ask me if I "peeked" when I worked on the players!! I'd give them my coldest stare and say "Of course not!" whereupon they'd giggle and say "Well *I* would!" as if they'd been especially witty!
This low-class, "wink-n-nudge" mentality comes from right around the '60's and '70's when both belly dancer and masseuse were merely a 'high-class' label slapped on as a front for prostitution. I still get RILED when I see ads in our local paper advertising "Massage By Beautiful Women". GRRR!! I absolutely reFUSE to allow Americans to refer to me as a masseuse, I tell them quite plainly I'm a massage therapist (Europeans don't see us in this light, so them using the term doesn't raise my dander *grin*). It's only been in the last 10 years or so that this service, too, has climbed out of the valley of ignorance and into the light of understanding and acceptance. All we (in both BD & MT) can do is continue to live above the slander and correct the ignorant where we can.

Wow, I guess this topic will NEVER die...

I completely agree with him (and I love the picture). Actually, I'm a little turned off that "Babelesque" sounds like burlesque (I'm assuming they were going for arabesque...)

I think its hard for us non-burlesquers to comment on their motives behind their dancing. I think slapping a label on entire group of dancers is risky... I mean, we have seen on this thread even how offensive misinterpretations can be. I have seen some really impressive burlesque and burlesque-inspired dancers that I think consider burlesque to be an art form. But it's important for the GP to understand burlesque is burlesque and bellydance is bellydance.

I think burly-belly is all right when you dance it in a venue that's filled with well-informed dancers (how often does that happen, right?) Maybe private haflas, all-women get togethers, etc. basically, in front of an audience that can look at a piece and say, "those are burlesque elements, those are bellydance." As a result, a lot of times burlesque doesn't fit a lot of venues and should hesitate being performed.

I agree with pretty much everyone. I like burlesque, I like watching it, and I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it just for fun in the future, but I support the "clearly labeled" camp. Also, the part of the article that got me was a bellydance show highlighting nipple tassels and a DJ Sleaze (C'mon, really? Sleaze??!!) I mean, you can't blame people for thinking a show is classless when it has the word "sleaze" right there!! Couple it with the word bellydance......and you see the headaches forming for bellydancers right there.

Okie Dokie... Here goes Spoon... getting in trouble again. So let's take a look at Belly-Burly Fusion. Everybody welcome my lovely assistant, Miss Youtube.

To kick this off I went looking for what (in my laymans opinion) is good burlesque. And I thought that these we're pretty good. (No nudity for those of you reading this at work but plenty of tassles and boobs.)
Jo Boobs show and photo clips www.youtube.com/watch
Kittie Klaw lecture snips on Burlesque history www.youtube.com/watch

Okay if you've followed so far then I would like to point out something in Kittie Klaws mini lecture that I thought was interesting. She is right when she said that "burlesque" could be found in Classical Greece. What she is refering to here is the Kordax. The Kordax was a satyrical schema of dance movements usually performed by soldiers and occasionally women. Sometimes you will see the Kordax as a reference to a precursor to "belly dancing" such as in Iris Stewarts "Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance." I believe it was also mentioned in Wendy Buonaventura's "Serpent of the Nile" but I'm not getting up to go double check. I'm going to have to go with Kittie Klaw on this one... the Kordax may have involved a lot of "butt dancing" but it was satyrical in nature so context and vocabulary of movement wise... it more closely resembles Burlesque. (Reference: "The Dance in Ancient Greece," Lillian B. Lawler.)

So now let's take a look at a couple different types of bellydance.
Ozgen, representing Turkish Orientale www.youtube.com/watch
FCBD, representing Improvisational Tribal www.youtube.com/watch
Aziza, representing Egyptian Cab www.youtube.com/watch
Tempest, representing Raqs Gothique www.youtube.com/watch
Amalia Maya, representing Tribal Fusion www.youtube.com/watch

Soooo what are we looking at here. There certainly is a lot of sensuality dripping off of Ozgen but his dance is also a bit more peacockish than you're average faire. For him it would seem that his dance is about presence, power, sensuality but also liberty. (Not to mention a little "lookie here.") The FCBD improv demonstrates something quite different; unity, solidarity and close attention to detail are all forefront roles of their presentation. There's an "appreciate what I can do" message but not a "lookie here" as there was with Ozgen. Aziza's performance is definately about showing off as the playful Saidi in the background suggests and we see that her performance seems to be about balance, matching movement directly to the music. Hips and chest could actually be playing the drums here. There is definately a "look at what I can do" but not so much a "lookie here." Tempest's entire presentation is distinctly theatrical; the music matches the costuming and mood instead of the actual movements. Though the movements themselves all fit together well and are within the belly dance vocabulary... her basic Orientale walk has a slightly different feel from the styles we've seen thus far. I see a theme of "feel what I'm feeling" or "think what I'm thinking" instead of "lookie here" or "look at what I can do." And finally Amalia's performance is far more abrupt and smooth than the other styles we've taken a look at. This creates a sort of optical illusion of grace which to me signifies that this dance is about utilizing hypnotic effects and tricks of layered muscle control. As such there is a "lookie here" thing going but it is very, very different from Ozgen's peacock approach.

Still with me? Okay let's take a look at some Belly-Burly Fusion!
Kira with some Burly-Belly Tribal Fusion www.youtube.com/watch
Ohh La La in a Brazilian-Style Drum Solo Belly-Burly www.youtube.com/watch
Sarah dancing to Opa Cupa (Dare I classify this? Moulin Rouge exploded!) www.youtube.com/watch

Alrighty... so what I'm getting out of this is...
Burly-Belly Fusion is Comedic Belly Dance in any form. It's camp. It's Vaudville camp. It has diddly to do with stripping or pasties and everything to do with dancers mixing it up and making fun of themselves/ belly dancing. It would seem to go really well with either the cabaret or the tribal fusion but the Turkish Orientale is a bit too serious in it's sensuality, the Raqs Gothique (though theatrical) is a little too dark, the ATS or ITS is just completely wrong for the spontenaity of it. There's a little more exposed flesh than we're accustomed to but that get's rail roaded by the rampant "WTF?!" that is the assault of color and comedic creativity of the dancer.

So Comedic Belly Dance is what we're looking at in a nut shell. Why can't we just say that? Since, according to Kittie Klaws up there, American Burlesque is more about the stripping than the comedy?

~*Spoonums*~

Isn't the current show called "Babelesque?"

Does anyone think "burlesque" when they see the name?

Not that I have a problem with burlesque, just that I think it is pot meet kettle when someone says they want to divorce belly dance from burlesque then name their show that.

excellent discussion.... loved everyone's take and thoughts on it.
personally, anything showing basically bare boobs with tassels, and combining it with belly dancing is just plain wrong on so many levels, imho. the examples from YouTube were a good way to show some of the differences.
would Le Serpent Rouge be considered 'burly-belly'?? to me it was more vaudeville-ian, than burlesque.... and i think some of the YouTube vids (Kira) was more vaudeville than true burlesque. i think of burlesque as theatrical stripping with a little coverage left at the end, as opposed to pole dancing stripping where yes, they wear costumes, but nothing nothing's left on the body by the end of it. however, since i have only seen three strippers in my time, what do i know?
in all genres there appears to be classy and sleazy, and if you want to maintain your integrity, then going sleazy is not the row to hoe... if you'll pardon the tacky pun ;)

as for *Babelesque*, i also thought it was more along the ancient connections of Babylon and the Tower of Babel.... in that, the show is a babel of different dance languages (styles), as opposed to a babel of different linguistic languages.... and it all stems from the M.E. so the inference to 'Bab'ylon.

and now, back to my regularly, and not so regularly, scheduled chores... ickky ;)

Okay, I can no longer go without saying anything on this topic. I read that article when it was first posted and it aggravates me as much now as it did then. Bellydance is an ART form. ART is open to interpretation. It grows and it changes. People put their stamp on it and make it what they want. Take Tribal for instance, it's a mix of different cultures and different dances and it has changed quite a bit with different fusions and interpretations. A lot of "traditional" belly dancers look down on tribal dancers, but screw them because we are just as good.

Also, burlesque dancers are no less respectable than belly dancers. There are bad burlesque dancers, just as there are belly dancers. I personally like burlesque. I have Irving Klaw's burlesque movies on DVD and they're cute and enjoyable. Burlesque dancers are perfectly respectable. As a matter of fact, I don't think stripping is such a bad thing either. Have you seen some of what those women can do on a pole? Pole dancing can be extremely acrobatic, and they're doing it in 7" heels! That's impressive! I have no idea why women do this to each other, this whole judging each other thing. On my ipod, I have tons of Rachel Brice performances as well as Suhaila Salimpour, Dita Von Teese, and various pole dances, rhythmic gymnastics, and ballet. I love all of these different art forms. And they all deserve respect. It's all performance art, no matter how much or how little cloth one is wearing. It's incredible to me how everyone always has to be looking down on someday. Ballet dancers look down on belly dancers, we look down on burlesque dancers, they look down on strippers.

Bellydance costumes are often pretty risque. Does that extra little bit of fabric over the breast, or longer skirts really make us better dancers, or even better women than burlesque performers? NO IT DOES NOT.

My point is it is not our place to judge. Princess Farhana, whom I feel Miles wrongly villainized, is a damn good dancer. Good for her! She has the right to express herself openly however she pleases.

So please, let's give respect. If we all walk around with our noses in the air we're bound to trip eventually.

<3 Constance

P.S. Give respect to models to. Even the ones who model in latex. Fetish fashion and photography is an artform, and it can be beautiful. Same as dance, modeling in a bikini, or in one's underwear is no more or less respectable than modeling in latex.