Here's a question for all the Troupes out there: how do you do the money? When you have a paying gig, what's the split? Where do musicians factor in? When your Troupe is invited to teach somewhere, is it just one teacher, does she invite troupe members, etc?
Do you have troupe funds? Do troupe members pay for classes? Does the troupe have "dues"?
Just wonderin' what everybody else is doing...
Do you have troupe funds? Do troupe members pay for classes? Does the troupe have "dues"?
Just wonderin' what everybody else is doing...
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sun, March 6, 2005 - 4:55 PMFor our troupe, all money from contracts goes into the troue fund. It helps offset costs for large costume purchases, travel for shows, troupe retreats, etc.
Tips are divided equally among the troupe members which performed that night.
If we had a band, there would be an extra charge involved and we would give them their portion to do with it as they saw fit.
I teach any and all workshops. I sometimes invite another member as an assistant and I either pay her a portion of the workshop payment or we trade for classes or costumes.
Our only dues is that we split the costs of our two hour rehearsal each week, so we each pay a flat rate each month (regardless of how many rehearsals we actually have--it fluctuates from month to month just based on the number of Tuesdays in a given month). Any overage goes into the troupe fund. Any under-payment, we offset with troupe funds.
Everyone is also required to attend Intermediate classes every week, which I sortof an additional "fee" involved in being with the troupe. We are responsible for our own costumes.
Any questions? Haha -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 9:37 AMWow, that seems like a lot of money.
Our troupe is POOR. Luckily, we have access to a free studio (only once a week, though). We have to make or buy our own costumes.
We just don't have the "infrastructure" to have troupe funds. We share, trade, and lend money/labor/costume items/time to each other, but we don't put our money into someone else's bank account. I don't think any of us would be comfortable with that.
Of course as time goes on, if we got bigger we might rethink that.
For our paying gigs, we charge per dancer, so we split it between the 3 of us equally.
If someone wants to hire a teacher, they would specify who they wanted, and that person would keep the money. That's not the troupe, that's that individual dancer's deal.
So there's a different perspective for you. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 10:10 AMIt isn't really that much money. We have one regular monthly gig, and then a smattering of other paid gigs each month (1-3, usually closer to 1 ;). As I said, it OFFSETS the cost of things, not pays for them. If we paid for everything listed there, we would be broke. We save it for key times when the money would do the most good for the entire troupe. We have found that the small amount we might make by splitting ends up being better spent when someone is "saving it" for all of us to use at a key time than if we just got it that night and, say, spent it on drinks and a meal after the show. A measly $30 can turn into $200 for troupe tee shirts if we save it. So that is how our system evolved.
We have a troupe bank account, not a single dancer's personal account. Renee, my co-director, is the treasurer and keeps an accounting of all our income and payments, and the books are open to anyone anytime they want to see what the balance is and how the money is being spent.
I am always curious how other troupes handle the money thing, too, El, so thanks for asking! -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 10:22 AMI was also curious, but the lack of replies makes me believe many people regard this information as "company secrets"... -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 10:28 AMWhy should it be? That seems so strange.
I understand the "what do you charge" question being a fishy one, but not "how do you handle it"?
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 10:55 AM...maybe it is a question of
how many groups are receiving $pay$ to dance as opposed to how many Pay to get to dance
ie group dues, costumes, travel expenses etc etc
Buisness vs Hobby
& there would be no buisness without us hobby enthusiasts
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 12:52 PMI am curious too read the replies too :) And (what has not worked and why???) list might be a cool addition too, hint-hint...
It is a pretty complex subject and really relative to personal views on what a "group funds" really are. I'll bet we will get a few more replies once it has baked in for a while.
I am thinking of more factors now that I feel work really well, like creative contirbution mattering as much as group fund/profit contribution. Ah well...I talk too much anyway..
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Unsu...
Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 1:13 PMI think you are probably right. It is interesting to read what has come thus far however.
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Tue, March 8, 2005 - 1:30 PMWe have monthly dues and at this time, all money earned by the troupe as a whole goes into troupe coffers to pay for travel expenses, cotuming, etc.
Is your troupe incorporated?
I tried to set up a checking account but was told I had to have incorporation papers for a business otherwise it had to be in my name. I already have a personal account and a business account. The more open checking accounts in your name, the more hits to your credit rating and I don't want another one to manage.
I am actually working on incorporating the troupe now, but it costs cash and time (taxes to be paid annually). But it would cover us getting insurance too, so am thinking about it for other reasons as well. But I am paranoid about that kind of stuff. I sometimes wonder if other troupes are concerned with paying music rights, having insuarance, paying taxes, etc. Anyone have any experience with this?
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Tue, March 8, 2005 - 2:07 PMThat's exactly what we do. All money made by the troupe as a troupe, goes into the troupe bank account. We put on a large festival every year and it takes lots of grant money plus our hard earned dollarinos to put it on.
While we don't pay ourselves (excluding the troupe member who is the event coordinator and myself who writes the grants) we only pay the band. If we have enough, we do pay ourselves a little, which we then turn around and buy costumes with. Everything thing else we pull in goes towards port-a-potties, hand washing stations, business licenses, park rentals and outside Artistic Fees (like we pay our "guests.")
Running a troupe is 'spensive.
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 12:29 PMA paid Gig gets split evenly among all my dancers after costs for that gig are covered, such as Gas, food, Costume items etc etc etc.... Most of the time breaking even is where it ends up but when it doesn't I make sure it is fair. I need them as much as they need me is how I see it and new dancers work just as hard if not harder so I feel they deserve an even cut. That's how I run it and it has worked so far, we are going on a long time without loosing core members and we are growig beautifully :). If we have musicians we charge more of course and everyone still gets out equal.
Troupe funds? That is a blurry subject If we are going to do a show together that requires us to put some money down for it we all go in evenly with time or money and decisions making. I have seen the so called "troupe funds" being used to make One troupe members "troupe Ideal" or personal view work, and in my opinion that does not work. Unless you make it worth the Troupe members while somehow, you are just waisting their energy time and money in the end. Why? well, in the end other than fillin up the troupe members closets with unwanted, ugly, or unworn, costumes and random garb that they never wanted in the first place, to bring one persons view to fruition, along with planting bitter seeds because Visionary leader is the only one making a dime, or at worst does not give a dime about anyone elses feelings/visions in general.
In that case when we are presented with one group members passionate Idea that will cost a pretty penny they have a few things to consider upon presenting it to the whole group 1. They must consider footing the costume or taking responsibility for most of the bill and not expecting other members to pay. 2. if they cannot affored to cover the expense then it is up to the members that are chosen for the gig to decide how much to put down for it. Especially if the gig makes barely enough to cover expences, it will not lead to more Gigs, and the costumes will only be used once. In a situation like that each member is responsible for the idea completely and whomever they choose to do it with them is under the understnding of a shared expense if they want to do the gig aswell. So in all everything is a collaborative expense and is treated as a collaborative decision and responsibility. Troup funds are drawn from our gigs or replenished by our gigs for the most part.
Troup members paying for classes? No, but splitting the overall rental of the room yes. I'd rather have the room paid for and have members show up to practice/drills than have to meet up later with them (on my own time) to catch them up just because they could not affored the class that day. It is more important to have the space and the members up to par with the new combos and choriography, but if they are not there, then it only makes them look bad in the end. And we all really know and have learned what slacking on practice can do to your performance. Having member show up is much more important to all of us than to make a few extra bucks. Especially since it is already understood that all expenses decisions and money made is equally split between members that are involved in the projects. It works itself out because each member is chosen to do gigs depending on their consistancy availability and ability. We have 8 members total, 4 core/soloists, 4sub members until their soloing ability builds up, and are able to manage gigs on their own.
Ultimately it is a group effort and project everyones vision is considered and shared and so are the expenses equally. There is a mothering by the more exp dancers/performers but not a governing within the group, so no one feels intimidated or restricted creatively. Most importantly everyone is encouraged to scout for Gigs to bring their vision out and the one who finds the gigs chooses who goes with, what to wear, Music, no questions, it is understood as just that and seems to be working really well.
I think as long as it is always honest and fair and the communication about money and troupe issues is always open it works very nicely and the fun and friendships are not comprimised. It does not work for everyone I am sure but It is doing well for us :)))
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 12:57 PMThere are many ways to handle this, so I think what you're going to find is that each group does something a bit differently, or they try multiple ways until they find what works for them.
Here are a few we have used in the past:
1. Split all monies evenly among performers for the gig
2. Take a percentage of the fee paid and put it aside for Troupe Funds, then split the rest up evenly among performers
3. All fees go to the Troupe with tips being split up to performers.
Some of these work better than others depending on Troupe goals and member participation (ie - troupe of 10 people, but only the same 4 people keep up with performing on a regular basis).
Also, we don't have dues, but most rehearsals come out of our personal funds.
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 1:03 PMWe put all our money into a troupe fund, which like Sharon said, goes to paying for expensive costume items and/or workshop, festival, travel expenses. When we get tips, they go in as well, as we are trying to get a nice base in the account, and it is best to save save save sometimes! Since there are only three of us, and we trust each other very much, there is no issue with the account. Our director keeps tabs, and divys out when need be.
We do have a monthly class fee, but we also teach the beginner's class (the two of us who don't teach the performing troupe class) so that cost is offset by the teaching pay. There are no troupe dues, but we are expected to cover any hotel, workshop, transportation fees outside of what our troupe fund can cover.
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Unsu...
Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 7, 2005 - 7:10 PMsundara varna did it like this:
<$100- divided amoungst the dancers in that particular show.
>$100- 50/50 troupe fund/ dancers in show.
principle dancers don't pay for classes, but gypsy camp does.
--required 3 out of 4 of classes offered every month.....plus once weekly rehersal in a troupe run studio/ garage....
-teachers- we kinda had a pecking order, i'd say most the most experienced one has first dibs....
-everyone was responsible for their own costumes, but they don't change very often and we shared alot......with people who have been doing tribal for 10 years you've got a good selection of costumes after a while!
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Unsu...
Re: Tribal Wealth
Tue, March 8, 2005 - 6:26 AMIn the past we split the money evenly between all dancers. We do have troupe dues that go into the pot though and so that helps offset the cost of costumes and equipment, advertising and other fees.
Rayya
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 9:59 AMWe usually put a small percentage into the troupe fund, and the rest gets divided evenly.
On the rare occassion when our student troupe gets a paid gig (usually retirement/nursing homes), it's not generally enough to divy up between dancers so we just all go out for food & drinks after the performance and put our pay towards the bill. It makes for a fun night out :)
We are furtunate enough to have free practice space!
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Fri, March 11, 2005 - 2:41 PMwell my troupe currently dosnt have paying gigs. we have only done festivals and currently starting to do competitions.
Currently any money made goes to advertising for more classes, and paying for competition fees. it's not alot of money coming in so we have to offset by splitting the fees and such.
All troupe members are required to be in class at least once a week. either at the studio in Sunnyvale on mondays, or at my assistant director's house sundays.
all troupe members are responcible for their own costumes. They can either give me the money to purchess/make it for them or they can get it on their own.
Mina
Dalloua Dance Company
Dalloua.com -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Fri, March 11, 2005 - 3:38 PMWhat happens when a troupe has very distinctive costumes (that troupe members bought for themselves) and someone leaves the troupe?
Does the departing dancer surrender the costume (with the troupe buying it back at cost)? Do they keep the costume, but agree not to perform in it? Or do they go out and perform solo (or with a new troupe that has created matching costumes perhaps) in said costume (despite perceptions regarding the former troupe)? -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Fri, March 11, 2005 - 4:18 PMIn our troupe, we ask them to sell it back, but it is up to them. It is their costume, and most times the relaly unique costumes weren't just purchased, but everyone worked on it themselves in some capacity. Asking them to surrender a "work of art" of their own making doesn't feel right. We would ask that they not perform in the entire ensemble as it was devised by the group though. Portions of it mixed and matched would be fine.
I know that if this were a company, proprietary works would apply. But in this case, we take the softer approach. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sat, March 12, 2005 - 4:07 AMIn terms of a troupe, all these posts sound good to me but what do you do if you don,t have a troupe? How do you charge and how do you pay the dancers? If you Invite for example some of your advanced students to do a paid group performance? I asked a local dance director for advice and she said to just break down into expenses, my own creation time e.g. for choreographing and a set fee for each dancer (which is more if they are professionals and a lesser student fee if they are students) according to what is the local average. What do you think? -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sat, March 12, 2005 - 6:22 AMHi everybody--wowee thanks for all the input! Sandra, this is where I'm at in terms of performance (working alone and inviting dancers) and wonder if it is a necessary intermediary step before official troupedom? Anybody have thoughts on that?
For example, we have two gigs coming up this next weekend, and I have 2 other dancers and 2 musicians. Up to now, and we've *just* become a more "official" troupe, all the money comes through me and I decide who gets paid what. This is because up until the last month I haven't had any constancy of dancers (it's a transient town). I don't like the dictatorial nature of the arrangement yet I am making the most money because it's all revolving around *me*. I organize every little detail and sweat the most. Should there be any difference for the director? Most troupes, as I'm hearing, say No.
So I'm trying to decide how to do it differently. I am also trying to make a living, not having an outside job...and all my dancers have outside jobs or are independently wealthy (yes, I'm serious! lol). Maybe I could just bring it up with them, have a circle discussion, and come to some agreement that way instead of deciding on my own.
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sat, March 12, 2005 - 2:38 PMThis is exactly what I was thinking. It's my job, I do a lot of work (practise every day, advertisement, choreographing, research, training, working on connections, etc.), have expenses (insurance, studio rent, advertisement, training, extra time, etc) and the dancers just come to rehearsals once a week, no expenses, no extra work. I think it's natural that I am getting paid for all the extras (and francly, where I live, that's how all dance companies work!). I just want it to be fair on everyone. And that's what I am trying to find out here, what are fair breakdowns of charges? But of course, i don't want to be indescreet in asking too many details on prices, so I am sorry if I was!
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sat, March 12, 2005 - 3:04 PMAnother factor to consider when deciding on a policy for paying out to dancers is where will the dollars have the biggest impact, I've seen troupes give 8 dancers $15 after a show (and more often than not the moeny ends up back in the bar's cash register at the club). Those same dollars that have minimal impact for the dancer could just as easily be combined to be $120, which adds up to 5,000 postcards for classes, upcoming events, bookings (or a professional photo session or a better website or a more effective media kit, etc). That $120 invested in an effective promotion today means tomorrow's event may generate a $50 pay-out to the dancers or $100, $200, $300 in the near future.
I think too often troupe directors are short-sighted and don't see the big picture when they decide to share the wealth in the beginning. If the dancers understand the gameplan and see the quality of their investment, they will generally support this sort of structure and have a greater appreciation for the benefits it yields. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sun, March 13, 2005 - 10:55 PMBrad D said:
... I've seen troupes give 8 dancers $15 after a show (and more often than not the moeny ends up back in the bar's cash register at the club). Those same dollars that have minimal impact for the dancer ...
The impact of $15.00 depends on the person. You can't assume that it will have "minimal impact".
I've lived most of my adult life "on the edge" financially. I mean on the edge of not having enough $$ to buy next week's food, or to pay this month's bills. For most of my adult life I've lived with a food budget of $50 to $80 a month. In spring 1998 I saved for two months to buy a vest that was at a goodwill store. That vest had a price tag of just $3.50. $15.00 had a _huge_ impact on my standard of living back then.
Lately, I spend nearly that much for food in just a single day when I'm on the road. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 14, 2005 - 7:59 AMHey Psych... I hear you. I'm sure most artists have lived through some mighty lean times (When I was in art school, all the openings would be scheduled for the end of the month so all the starving students would fill out the event looking for the free buffet table). But the priniple is the same whether you're talking about dance troupes or starving artists. You need to invest a slice of the pie today to get a bigger pie tomorrow. $15 won't get you out of the hole today but invested wisely, it should lead to the $150 payday that will. If you desparately need $15 today, you may need to consider an alternate source for those dollars (if you want the dance to become sufficient).
I don't want to assume that I know about anyone's particular situation and I fully respect anyone making a go as a dancer (or other artist), but I've just seen so many talented people walk away from the arts altogether because they can't take this step towards making a living with their craft.
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Sun, March 13, 2005 - 4:09 PMWhen we have a paying gig, 1/3 of the money goes to the troupe fund and 2/3 gets split among the dancers who were at the gig. If we know we have a big expense coming up that we need to save for as a troupe though, we dump all money into troupe funds.
When we work with musicans (since we don't have regular ones), they charge their rate and are paied seperately.
When we do workshops, we normally send 2 teachers (we have 4). The teachers split half of the workshops earnings and the other half goes to troupe funds. If we are doing a full-day seminar all four of us teach and half the earnings are split between the 4 of us , half going to the troupe. If the workshop is at the location of one teacher's regular classes, she does the workshop alone and reaps all the benefits.
Our troupe does not pay dues, nor do we have to take classes from the troupe, as we are a collective with practically equal experience and no clear superior dancer or teacher. We are all expected to remain enrolled in Egyptian style dance classes though and take advantage of workshop opportunities as they come. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 14, 2005 - 8:47 AMWhat a great subject,!
In the 6 years that I have led Baraka Mundi we have grown from a cute-but-bad garage band of dancers to a serious business. We have tried every variation of model, I think, from collective to director, and many ways of handling money.
Be aware that it can be hard hard emotionally and fiscally to change a group's approach to these things mid-stride, so for those just starting a troupe, even as a creative collective, i suggest laying out a business plan first and THEN inviting folks to join you. That way you wont lose time, money or friendships by discovering your differing points of view the hard way.
The main models that seem current:
collective: where all business matters are open to all, and everyone is paid the same, or all the money goes into a kitty for the troupe's promotional and training needs.
director: where one person provides the thread of continuity in a group together over time, and treats it as their business. they may or may not disclose the business details to everyone in the group.
there is also the 'nonprofit status dance company' but i dont understand how that works yet.
each model can allow everyone lots of creative leeway in costuming, music etc. it is just a question of what you all want in a group, and for how long.
in a true collective, every time you get new members your whole culture can change, and the focus of the group can shift considerably. you may or may not be OK with that, if you have been pouring yourself into the group for years. a promising new person can settle in and then say - i am an equal partner in this project, and i say we all need to tapdance naked in jello from now on- and shake it all up just like that. careful screening of new members can certainly help. sometimes liking someone may not be enough to merit sharing your hard work with them. or it may, it just depends on what you want from a group experience.
for us, we have adopted the business model and it has helped us grow and improve tremendously, as well as be more organized and get more respect in our local 'real' dance community of modern, flamenco, ballet etc.
We break $ down like this:
As director, i make a 15% booking fee. Booking gigs is work, especially for gigs that takes you out of town, with more planning/hotels etc., and the consequences of snafus greater. the person who takes on that responsibility deserves to see a return on it, and this is true even if the booking work is done in turns by everyone in the group. whoevers gets the work should be honored for it.
I am on the phone and computer making work for the whole company instead of being at another job, with my child, or in the dance studio. after four years of working to get gigs for the group for free, my time had real value.
When we work with a producer, they get the booking fee instead since I am then free to focus on the actual dancing aspect of our dancing and not shuffle papers.
in the past we have either paid everyone the same or paid the apprentice dancers and musicians less (to acknowledge that the seasoned members will be carrying most of the show).
the group fund gets a % too, 5-15% depending on the gig and how well-funded the kitty is. when we know we have an event or bill coming up, we meet to agree on a higher % for the fund.
i suppose an alternative would be for the business owner/troupe director to keep a higher % and pay all those costs out of their pocket.
like anyone, i am always learning something new about how to do this crazy dance thing, what a great forum for honest talk!
Onca -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Mon, March 14, 2005 - 7:41 PMLovin' this wealth of experience...getting so much out of this discussion!
thanks ever'body. Keep it comin'. -
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Re: Tribal Wealth
Tue, March 15, 2005 - 4:02 PMAll of these have been helpful. For the troupe funders, do you have a "formal agreement" of some kind if a troupe member decides to take a leave of absence or leave the troupe altogether?
If she leaves, is she allowed to take her costume items with her since she did work for them or does she keep them?
most troupes I've known , the directors have taken on the publicity stuff but that is a huge expense.
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