Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

topic posted Wed, April 9, 2008 - 6:02 AM by  Denise
Hello all.

Please support you sisters in the UK. We are now banned from purchasing dance swords.

Sad news I'm afraid. I have just spoken to Jonathan Batt, at the home office who has confirmed that we (belly and tribal dancers in the UK) are covered in the VCR (Violent Crimes Reduction Bill).
As Belly dancers, we are not covered in the exemptions of being classed as a 'sporting activity' or a Historical reenactment. While we can perform with our existing swords, if you have public liability insurance. You can no longer purchase a new blade.

This is scary thought, as if we are not included in the exclusions to the ban, the art form of sword dancing will ultimately die out in the UK! my sword was broken recently In a workshop when it was dropped. I now can't get a new one....

The only way we can get this changed for all belly dancers is to contact the home office and request that as a dance form that we are allowed to continue to be allowed to purchase swords, so that we can continue with a beautiful art form.

Please, Please take the time to contact Jonathan and request that he put forward to the Home Office that bellydancers and tribal dancers are made exempt from the VCR Bill. He is a nice guy and has agreed to be the contact point for this query. It will take a huge volume of dancers contacting him to make a difference, so please take the time to write to him.

His contact details are Jonathan.Batt@Homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

Also if you are a member of a tribe, where this is not mentioned, can you please post information there.

Ta
Denise
posted by:
Denise
United Kingdom
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Wed, April 9, 2008 - 1:50 PM
    That is awful. I think dancers in the UK should form a petition form writting down why they should not ban them and have everyone who agrees sign it. Get as many sinatures as you can even from people who dont dance, people who understand and know that you are not using this sword for crime but for art and history. Many do this to make a difference. When You have alott of signatures send it to him. And just keep going and dont give up, I will defenitly send him a messege letting him know about why he shouldnt ban them.
  • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Wed, April 9, 2008 - 7:26 PM
    I am scheduled to teach four sword workshops in the UK this Fall and the sponsors are seeing if I can even bring our big curved swords into the country. The description of the ban I read was that curved swords are banned but straight are not. There are some straight cutlass swords that will balance if you turn the handle so maybe that will be a way you can get around it.
  • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Thu, April 10, 2008 - 8:05 AM
    Denise, I am happy to write an email like this. Can you please tell me what is the proper form of address for this position (someone at the "home office")? Are there particular "talking points" that my email should cover? Or would you be willing to write a sample letter that we can all just copy, paste, and personalize?
  • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Thu, April 10, 2008 - 12:43 PM
    I just sent him an email, and included two links to Tribal sword dancers. One of the links showed a piece where some of the dancers had swords, and some had baskets, and it was pretty obvious that despite the skill required to use either prop, the swords were really impressive in comparison. (not dissing basket dancers, but they won't put a hole in your foot if you drop one)
  • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Thu, April 17, 2008 - 6:01 PM
    I wrote to Johnathan Batt, and he replied as follows (for those lacking the patience to read his response, the window open to argue our case had closed almost a year ago, so you're outta luck, sister):

    Thank you for your recent email regarding the ban on swords with a curved blade of over 50 centimetres and the effect of this on belly dancing.

    The Government has now banned the sale, hire, manufacture and import of samurai swords, through a ban on all swords with a curved blade of 50cm or over in length, due to their use in violent crime. The ban came into force on 6 April 2008 having received Parliamentary approval following debates in the Commons and the Lords which unanimously supported the ban. It is important to note that legislation already exists that bans the possession of these weapons in a public place, and that it will be permissible for those who already own swords which fit the definition to retain ownership.

    As you may be aware the ban follows on from a Government consultation paper published on 5 March 2007 which detailed proposals to ban samurai swords and gave a 12-week window for people to let us have their views. The closing date for the consultation was 28 May 2007.

    In terms of the ban going too wide in picking up all curved swords, the Government thinks this is proportionate in order to ensure that we have a definition that is enforceable and which has a real impact in terms of reducing the availability of items that have and can be used in violent crime. The proposed ban is about protecting people and communities and it is important to have a definition that minimises the need for subjective interpretation.

    In banning such swords, the Government has sought to safeguard legitimate use by including defences in the Offensive Weapons Order for collectors of genuine Japanese swords, for those who partake in historical re-enactments and for swords used by martial arts enthusiasts. Regarding adding extra defences for groups such as belly dancers who consider their legitimate use of curved swords has been unfairly targeted by the definition, there is a risk that by creating too many defences it makes any ban unenforceable by police, customs and the courts. However, we will, of course, listen to and consider representations from such groups.

    Please find the link below to the summary of responses paper and subsequent Order laid before Parliament.

    www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documen...weapons/

    www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/...0973_en.pdf

    We do not propose, at present, to add any other articles to the Offensive Weapons Order, although policy on offensive weapons is constantly kept under review.

    Regards

    Jonathan Batt
    Public Order and Offensives Weapons section
    Public Order Unit
    • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

      Thu, April 17, 2008 - 6:12 PM
      How about contacting him, and asking that a licence or notice be issued to bellydancers?

      There has to be a middle ground- and he does say you can get together and put forward a disagreement. If this doesn't get them moving, perhaps (and I'd be happy to help out-this isn't just an issue for UK dancers) a youtube, myspace, facebook and any other networking site blitz is in order?

      What about getting as many bellydancers as we can to do little video messages that can be put on one youtube page- the more the better- and it puts faces, and names to the campaign, and then you aren't all just a bunch of little unorganised people, but a unified, vocal front?

      You may well find the media getting involved if cards are played right- and that could work wonders!
    • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

      Fri, April 18, 2008 - 6:37 AM
      > there is a risk that by creating too many defences it makes any ban unenforceable by police,
      > customs and the courts.
      > However, we will, of course, listen to and consider representations from such groups.

      Clearly in the future British gang members will sport coin bras, tassel belts, and pink and yellow 9 yard skirts
      in order to be categorized as "belly dancers". That way they can carry samurai swords (which are ever so easy to conceal)
      in order to commit their roberies and attacks.

      Psychedelic Chameleon/ Karadeniz/ Denys
      • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

        Fri, April 18, 2008 - 7:47 AM
        "Clearly in the future British gang members will sport coin bras, tassel belts, and pink and yellow 9 yard skirts in order to be categorized as "belly dancers".

        I just got the most hysterical mental image of that.

        What prompted this ban in the first place, were there a rash of violent crimes being committed at sword-point? And I'm not clear on why they keep stressing that "curved blade" issue, is a straight blade less dangerous?
  • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

    Sun, April 20, 2008 - 5:47 AM
    I should have thought that we could argue for being classed within the Historical Re-actment exemption? I'm all for banning dangerous weapons (not that the bans seem to work too well) but i have yet to read any reports of bellydancers running amock. Is it worth more nagging?
    Sahira
    • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

      Sat, April 26, 2008 - 1:11 AM
      Hi Ladies,
      Forgive me for putting my oar in but you're all approaching this problem from the wrong direction!

      Mr Blatt at the Home Office may be a very nice and helpful chap but I doubt if he's ever seen a belly dance sword and (as a Home Office employee) is probably the worst person to ask advice from. Think about it... who is going to get assigned the task of answering emails from belly dancers? The office junior? The chap who accidentally parked his car in the Minister's parking spot and is thus serving his punishment? The security guard who's here illegally from Iran?

      What I'm really trying to say is that a belly dance sword is neither a sword, an offensive weapon or a knife.... It's A DANCE ACCESSORY!
      Could you cut butter with your belly dance sword? Probably not.

      I wrote an article a couple of days ago looking at the subject from the point of view of a former police inspector and it's on my website at www.lincolnshirebellydancer.co.uk under Articles and Reviews. Take a look . I have links to the relevant acts so you can read for yourself directly from the source.

      I'm not a lawyer but I have some practical experience. If you want a definitive answer go and see a criminal lawyer (did I hear someone say all lawyers are criminal?) but I don't think you have a thing to worry about so long as you aren't dancing with real swords.

      Don't let the word "sword" confuse you as it has Mr Blatt. :-)

      Best wishes,

      Mark
      • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

        Sat, April 26, 2008 - 9:53 PM
        Hi Mark,

        I'm in th U.S. but have been watching this topic with interest. For most of us tribal dancers, the sword we dance with is the Cas Iberia scimitar.

        It weighs over four pounds and is actually shipped to us "battle ready" — that is, with an edge on it. Most of us take the edge off ... a very few dancers keep it on.

        Even without the edge, though, the sword still has a very sharp point, and it's heavy and sturdy enough so that someone with serious intent could do damage with it.

        Then again, a crowbar is heavy and blunt as well, and can also be used to inflict quite a bit of damage. As can a cricket bat. Or a shovel.
        What I think the law is missing is what is the intent of the person wanting the sword — do they actually want a weapon? Or a dance prop?

        Recently in the States, a New York state legislator sponsored legislation that would have imposed a tax on antique black powder weapons and effectively prevented people from owning black powder weapons. New York state has quite a few small, private and publicly owned museums about the state's Colonial history that would have effectively have been bankrupted if they had to pay the taxes for their weapons collections. And the state also has a lot of French and Indian War, Revolutionary War, and Civil War re-renactors who gather at various historical sites each summer for mock battles that attract lots and lots of tourists and the money that they spend.

        The legislation died a quiet death upon this realization.

        It's too bad no one can estimate how many hundreds of thousands of pounds would be lost from the dance sword prohibition — no workshops going on, no teachers coming in from overseas to teach, no accompanying tourism from dancers and their families ...maybe this is a way to reach the minds of your legislators.

        Christiane
      • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

        Sat, April 26, 2008 - 10:05 PM
        Oh, I wanted to add that I read your article and it's good to see that the ban really does not apply to the "prop" swords cabaret dancers use. But tribal dancers here started using the Cas because the little, delicate cabaret swords just didn't cut it, so to speak, with the dance style. I started out with a light chrome cabaret sword and I hated it because it would slip off my head at every opportunity, even though it was well-balanced. But once I tried out a Cas, that was it, I've never looked back.

        Cas Iberia does make a similar sword called the Baladay that was specifically created for tribal dancers. It is lighter, slightly shorter, and is not sharpened. It still looks like a real sword, though, and therefore would still make your police very uneasy, and probably can't be imported because of that.

        This is the original Cas Iberia scimitar:
        www.kultofathena.com/product...itar.htm

        And this is the Baladay:

        kultofathena.com/product~item~SW665.htm
        • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

          Sat, April 26, 2008 - 11:32 PM
          Hi Christiana. Those look like beautiful swords and would definitely fall under the ban. I'm not sure what these delicate cabaret swords are, I'm not a sword dancer (or any kind of dancer!) and my wife has yet to venture into the sword dance field... although she's interested!

          What seems to be the most popular type here is a brass "Arabic Executioner" style sword (can I find a picture of one??? Can I heck!) with a "blade edge" about an eighth of an inch wide and no real point. Other styles with similar blades are around too and they are heavy enough to be danced with Tribal style.

          The UK has always had strict weapons law so these have been developed for this market. What seems to have happened is that cheap imitation Samurai swords have become popular with young men. A few years ago a gentleman with mental problems went berserk with one and killed someone. Our nanny state thus decided that no one should own anything like this and have banned the sale, manufacture, import etc of swords with curved blades etc... or rather have added these items to the list of banned weapons. I shall refrain from making political comment although I admit I'm not keen on the idea of our average soccer thug walking round the streets while kitted out like a master Ninja.
          • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

            Sun, April 27, 2008 - 12:21 AM
            Thing is Mark, None of the suppliers in the UK are going to risk it! I fully agree on your comments, especially not being able to cut butter with a dance sword prop and truthfully if you did try and hurt someone with it, you'd be more likely to do yourself some damage!

            Most suppliers of dance swords have stopped selling them as the law specifically dose not exempt Bellydancers from the Sword Ban. They are as confused as we are and understandably do not want to take the risk. I have contacted as many suppliers as I can and they all have said that they will not sell to bellydancers or have stopped stocking them. I have also contacted the larger companies who stock the cas Iberia scimitar and generally sell to reenactors , they also will not sell to bellydancers as we are not clearly exempt from the Ban. In fact I was trying to buy a cas iberia scimitar when I discovered about the ban.

            Unfortunately, if we purchase a sword from outside the UK, customs will impound it. When I tried to purchase my sword from the USA the supplier said that they have had this happen more then once and now will not sell to the UK.

            This is why we need to campaign, for all UK Dancers there is a e-petition petitions.pm.gov.uk/BellyDanceSwords/ you can sign, for dancers outside the UK you can voice your concerns to Jonathan at the Home office.

            D
            • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

              Sun, April 27, 2008 - 9:09 AM
              You've got a good point there Denise. I've emailed the gentleman at the Home Office with a summary and it'll be interesting to see if he replies and if he's prepared to take on board my comments. It would be something if we could get acknowledgment that our flat edged props are not swords or knives and thus relieve the fears of retailers on that score. I looked online yesterday and was surprised to see that I couldn't find any on sale in any of the usual bellydance retailers. I may believe that I'm right with total confidence but I'm not a retailer and my wife hasn't got a prop sword yet.

              If that doesn't work there is the option of getting a retailer to force the issue and take a case to court for a test case which I think we'd win. That would probably need the backing of a wealthy individual, the backing of a sympathetic newspaper or a fighting fund.

              For the other swords with dull edges and points it would be more difficult and the exemption or getting recognition of membership of a bona fide bellydance group (such as NADA or MADN etc) would be the way forward. Equity is virtually a closed shop and is not an option for most of our devotees. I'd think that we'd have a case for adding one or more of our organisations as it would seem that they totally missed us out of the consultation process.

              How about letters to MPs? They sometimes like to score points off the Home Office. Conservative or Lib Dem MPs would probably be most likely to take up the cause. Newspapers too, particularly the ones known for government bashing. Does anyone know a reporter in that category who could take on a campaign?

              Just brainstorming here.... OOPS! I'm told brainstorming isn't P.C. and I have to say "thought shower" instead.

              Mark
              • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:13 AM
                I just added the following note to my article for clarification.

                I have been in correspondence with Denise who started this process and she has pointed out to me that the problem isn't so much with the legality of "standard"belly dance swords but with the fact that retailers are not prepared to take the risk and sell them. The legislation creates the offence of "....sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies..." (section 141 (1) of the Criminal Justice Act of 1988) and imposes a maximum term of six months in prison or a fine of £1,000.

                Consequently you will discover that you can't find a belly dance sword, even a what I believe to be a "legal" sword, for sale. I've checked all the usual online UK suspects (belly dance shops) and they've all taken swords off their accessories pages!

                Perhaps smuggling belly dance swords will find a niche market in the world of organised crime? Will we soon be reading stories in the papers of Customs and Excise raids on shipments of belly dance swords from France? I'm sure the offence would warrant a diversion of manpower from gun running, drugs, alchohol and tobacco.
                • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                  Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:42 PM
                  Questions of sale aside, Mark, you may be wrong about the swords not falling into the category of the sword.
                  I eagerly await your British test case in legal contest.

                  If this were to happen in the United States, the first court decision would likely be that a dance sword qualifies as a sword from a practical law enforcement standpoint, even if it doesn't technically meet the legal definition of a sword. (And, as some dancers have already said, many swords used by Tribal style dancers here in the united states are heavy, sharp, and pointed.)

                  For nerds and geeks who want a description of what would probably happen, read on. To the rest of you, have a good day!

                  ------------------
                  Here in the United States, the Justice System is profoundly complicated and involves the police agencies, the local, regional, state, and federal government agencies, the legislators, and the multi-leveled and sometimes overlapping courts systems (criminal and civil). I'd be surprised if the legal system in Britain is as complicated, but it may be since Britain is so much older than the United States. Still, the British seem keen or redesigning and fixing their systems every hundred years, either explicitly or behind the scenes, while in the USA Americans would rather add-on to the complexity and kind of patch things up as we go, just making things more complex.

                  "It _looks_ like a sword, it _sounds_ like a sword, it's _shaped_ like a sword, it's made of metal, and the dancer herself _called_ it a sword, therefore it _is_ a sword."

                  My point is that because law enforcement is so complex in this country, many events that could be called "potential infractions" of the law never make it to court, and can cause you a big bunch of trouble anyways. But because the defendants don't get to court, they never really have much say and can't defend themselves properly, and have little real retribution. The laws continue to be enforced in whatever way is most practical for the enforcers and prosecutors, rather than in what is technically accurate.

                  When a case does go to court, it starts in a lower court. In the United States, the tendency of lower court judges is to interpret situations in a light that makes enforcement of the laws possible and practical. The judge would likely side with the police and say something to the effect of "if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's a duck".

                  If the defendant loses and certain legal conditions are met, the defendant may file to have an appeal to challenge certain very limited aspects of the case that were formative in either the verdict or the sentencing. It is likely that the appeal would not be granted, since the case load for appeals is so large, and since there is no profound benefit to the general public regardless of the verdict of the appeal.

                  If the appeal is granted, another court session will be held in a "higher" court with a different judge. It would be in a higher court that a judge might make the distinction between a dancer's sword and a real sword meant for cutting.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                    Wed, April 30, 2008 - 2:19 AM
                    Hi Psychedelic, I lived in the US for 10 years so I can see what you mean about probable differences there. Fortunately for us here, it just seems to be our legislators who are a few coins short of a bra. Many police officer (with exceptions) and Judges tend to be a bit more sensible... most of the time.

                    I remember when I moved back to the UK 16 years ago I had double my allowance of cigarettes due to bad information and, being an honest chap, I went through the "Goods to Declare" line at the airport. I told the customs man the problem, he looked at me like I had a screw loose and said "Are you planning to go outside and sell them?" I said, "No, of course not." He laughed, jerked his thumb at the exit and said "Bugger off!" After dealing with poker faced US civil servants (perhaps just the ones I was unfortunate enough to deal with) for the previous 10 years I thought that was a particularly great welcome home. :-)
              • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:36 PM
                "How about letters to MPs? They sometimes like to score points off the Home Office. Conservative or Lib Dem MPs would probably be most likely to take up the cause. Newspapers too, particularly the ones known for government bashing. Does anyone know a reporter in that category who could take on a campaign?"

                As a former newspaper reporter at a U.S. paper, I would emphatically say that media contacts are very very useful.

                What someone might want to do, however, is produce a video and submit it to CNN for their viewer generated content; one of the BBC new programs has a similar viewer-generated-content program, that can also attract attention. This, in fact, may be a great project for someone in school for broadcasting.

                A YouTube video campaign might also work. Imagine lots of videos of dancers trying to sword dance with a golf club or tennis racket or cricket bat on their heads, and then footage of them dancing beautifully and gracefully with their swords, whether Cas Iberias or cabaret swords. And then the dancers could say, "Although I legally own this sword, none of my fellow dancers or my students are now able to obtain swords of their own. Teachers of sword dance from overseas will not be able to share their art in the United Kingdom, because they legally cannot bring their swords into the country." Then flip to the footage of folks balancing cricket bats or golf clubs on their heads, and words can scroll across the screen, "Help preserve the art of sword dancing in the United Kingdom. Contact your MP now."

                I sincerely wish my U.K. dance friends the best of luck trying to get the ban overturned!
                • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                  Wed, April 30, 2008 - 2:28 AM
                  That's a great idea on the video, Christiane! I like it and can almost visualise the script.

                  There are several ways we can approach this as I see it, I don't doubt we'll win in the end if we can put a sensible campaign together and there are a number of ways we can legally get access to dance swords in the meantime. The big problem at the moment is that no retailers seem to be willing to stick their necks out (pun intended) and those of us who are not already sword owners can't find one for love nor money!
                • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                  Mon, May 5, 2008 - 3:24 PM
                  Christiane- I said the exact same thing on this thread post elsewhere :)

                  I think the youtube campaign is a brilliant idea.

                  Then, once there's a lot of videos linked together (think 'channel' on youtube) get everyone to send it to their local news station, newspapers....someone will pick it up guaranteed.


                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                    Mon, May 5, 2008 - 3:28 PM
                    And if there is footage of bellydancers all over the world- they can hit it with the 'worldwide outrage' or 'worldwide stir caused by british laws'
                    angles.

                    I'm happy to make a little footage to help...
                    • Re: Swords banned in the UK.... Please read

                      Tue, May 13, 2008 - 11:16 AM
                      I found an online retailer with with "sword shaped belly dance accessories" who's not afraid to sell them!!

                      Donna Conway of South Yorks has or can get "sword shaped belly dance accessories" from her wholesaler. Contact her through her website at www.arab-esque.co.uk

                      I don't think she has them listed in her shop but if you email her she'll tell you what type she has and cost etc.

                      Mark

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