There have been a couple of extensive threads on this topic. Check 'em out...

gypsy vs romany
tribalbellydance.tribe.net/thre...71338

The "G" word
tribalbellydance.tribe.net/thre...132f3

Lotta good info in both.

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Dosn't Romany also refere to a particular group of "gypsies"?

Also, I think we tend to use gypsy in a wider meaning...describing any nomadic "ethinc" people or things, with a certain feel, certainly not all "gypsy" thing would fall under romany. But it is a more general term to describe what we may not all have specific names for, or know the origins.

The closests thing I can relate it to in my own life for example, is the term "queer". Many still consider it a derogitory term, but it is an all encompasing term as well, instead of gay, bi, pan, gender fluid, etc etc...just queer, simplifies, perhaps makes it a little more vauge, but allows for a wider encompasment.

Honestly this is the first time i ever heard about this. I am from a Gypsy descent on my Mother's side and she has always talked about my ancestors using the word Gypsy. Its definitely a meaning for a traveler or a nomad but never heard of it being a negative word. If it was, my mother would never use it for she is a very respectable woman and she is against anything negative...majorly against. My great grandmother was always noted as a Gypsy. But people will interpret differently and have different opinions i guess.

Most "Gypsies" are not offended by the term and take pride in being a gypsy. The meaning of a term is not intrinsic to the term itself. Until a gypsy tells me to shut the f*ck up, and not use the term, I'll still use it.

I don't consider it offensive, but I'm not from the Roma culture. I don't use it much anymore if ever because of the possible offense taken, and since it's not a word I really need to use it's not really an issue in my day-to-day word usage.

But also used to be in Ultra Gypsy, and didn't blink at the name. I just try to be sensitive to others' cultures and hope that if I do use the wrong term, the person will know it is only out of ignorance and not malice. And that I'm happy to learn differently.

We have had a problem being called "gypsy dancers" by promoters. We have nothing to do with that culture and patiently tried to explain that it is misrepresenting our dance form but they didn't have a clue. Finally we had to put a clause in our contract to not use the term "gypsy" when promoting us and provided plenty of gig appropriate promotional text for them so they wouldn't have to "get creative" with the wording and so far it has worked.

From what I know the word Gypsy is not regionally specific. It is a very general worldwide term. I just spent 3 months in India. While in Rajasthan I took dance lessons from women who call themselves gypsies. Kahbelia Gypsies. They are very proud of this term. They are not ashamed of their caste or social status that they have no control over. They are making a living off teaching their folk dance. In fact, I quote Rakhi, my gypsy teacher, "You go America, you say, I learn gypsy dance from real gypsies. You dance gypsy, I very proud."
In my opinion, in this country, being called a gypsy is a compliment. For me, it is more of a term meaning 'outside the norm'. A name that says I am different and willing to accept and embrace diverse cultures and ways of thinking. No matter what you say on this earth..... it is always going to offend somebody, somewhere. I think we have to get over being so P.C. and call ourselves whatever term we like. And for me, and my troupe, we like being referred to as gypsies. www.tribalreign.com

Read the book "Bury Me Standing". It's got a lot of good info on what is Romani. There are also two other major classifications of "gypsies" that are not Rom. Romani seems rather restricted to the northern cultures near the area of the Balkans. There is another group for the "gypsies" of the Middle East and another still for the "gypsies" of the southern areas of Europe focusing on Spain through Italy. These groups have their own names based on the subtle differences in dialect from one culture to another. It also states that some "gypsy" families in the US and in Europe prefer to refer to themselves as "Gypsies" rather than Rom or any other term. It's a part of who they are and they're proud of that heritage. There's nothing wrong with that. Some of those who consider themselves "Rom" would prefer to have a dancer call herself "gypsy" than Rom because they are not accurately portraying the true culture. Instead they are invoking the romanticized, fantastical belief that "gypsies" are a culture that spends their whole lives performing in the streets and playing music to make their way. While that was common, they often had far more professions, which is why the term "Tinker" is used in Ireland, or at least was in one point in time. "Gypsies" were often known for being tin smiths (tinkers) and copper smiths (coopers, I think...).

As for how I personally feel about using the term "Rom" versus "Gypsy", unless I were to be accurately depicting a culture that called themselves Rom or Romani, I would feel like I was doing every bit as much of an injustice as people have done in the past by labeling things "Gypsy" that weren't. In history, any traveler was named a "Gypsy" whether they had the blood of the "Little Egyptians" or not. They were all treated the same, which really isn't fair. To have a "Gypsy" dance style that I called "Rom" or "Romani" I would only be portraying an inaccurate profile of what Rom really is. I'd rather use the "derogatory" term "Gypsy" which would in essence be insulting myself, not the Rom, than to inaccurately portray the Romani (or any other group) by calling myself by that name and portraying them to be something they aren't in deed. It would be best to research the culture extensively before taking the name of an actual culture.

I think any "gypsy" reading this thread would laugh at us and tell us to shut-up and dance!

Interesting topic but I am wondering....To whom do you consider Rom? Why would you classify ALL gypsies as Rom when it is very clear that there are many many tribes and types of gypsies in the world? I am gypsy and proud of it. My Grandmother was Egyptian and gypsy , she married an Irish traveller (gypsy) and so forth... So just so you know, all gypsies do not call themselves Rom since there are Domari, Lomarvren, Romani, Lyuli, Zabaleen, Ghagar, Nawar, Halebi, Sinti, Ghawazee, Yenichi, Cikani, Sea gypsies, Rroma (yes it is with 2 r's) who originally come from Serbia and the russian empire, the Romnichels who hail from England, the Ludras who are Bosnian, the Gitanos from Spain, the Kalderdash, the Manush, and even the Shelta from places in Ireland, you also have welsh travellers, tinkerers, etc, etc, etc. That's why some of us gypsies do not call ourselves Rom. Hope this helps your query.

As a full Romani, I am horrified by the word Gypsy. "I've been gypped!" "My horse is all gyppy today." Urban Gypsy. Gypsy Fire. Gypsy Caravan. Anything related to Stevie Nicks. Makes me want to scream.

BUT....BUT....I do understand that when I tell someone I'm Rom, or Rroma, they look at me confused. I just calmly explain, "You may call it Gypsy, but please understand, that's a racial term for us, much like (insert appropriate word of your choice). I would prefer you refer to me or my people as Romani, but I know how hard it is to remember that word."

It's the STEREOTYPE associated with the word Gypsy I hate. My family also jokingly refer to themselves as "Gypsies" as opposed to Roma, but it's when people wear bandanas and big skirts and call it "Gypsy style" that grates me. When a cabaret group calls themselves Gypsy Lotus with no idea why other than it sounded good. When people don't acknowledge the cultural heritage or the genocides that have affected us over and over and make blanket statements like "free like the Gypsies." The word, when used with respect and with a knowledge of culture behind it, does not bother me half as much as when it's used in ignorance.

It has also worked its way into our vocabulary, like a facial tissue is "hand me a Kleenex" and a mimeograph machine is "can you Xerox this?" I do a workshop entitled "Just becausae you dress like Stevie Nicks does NOT Make you Gypsy (Romani)." Done with humor, it educates and does cut down on those stereotypes.

I was just drumming with a gypsy dude tonight and I asked him if he was offended by the word gypsy. He looked at me like I was crazy!

I am of Viking heritage, I have mixed feelings about whether to be proud or not based on the actions of my anscestors. However I have never thought about being offended by others using the Viking term in expression, or advertising, or performce groups.
Websters dictionary even has several meanings for the word Gypsy. So in answer to Summers question, my opinion is that gypsy means something different in the dance world than it does in a political world and I choose not to mix the two. Because for me an American ,BellyDance is my escape and alter ego. The intention of how the word is used is the important part. Its enough to educate the public about the Word(s) Bellydance

'Gypsy' has always meant beauty and freedom to me...more a way of life... of being your own person and dancing to your own beat...I'd never mean it in an offensive way...

As far as it being a style...I see it in the same way...something free and joyful...of a life well loved and lived to it's fullest...

I think that it still stings for some because they choose for it to...if you don't let a word bother you, then it loses it's power...is about like the word 'witch'...and I claim that title with pride...but others don't see it that way all the time...they see an ugly old woman with green skin and a pointed hat...riding a broom and boiling children in a cauldron...or just someone evil...does that mean that it's true?

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings...but PC makes me wanna scream...we're all too sensitive nowadays...

I think you have to remember that people considered "gypsies" are actually a diverse group that basically originated from one ethnicity and spread throughout the world.....many different groups have different beliefs and practices. They have basically somewhat mixed (despite tons of rules seeming to say the opposite) with the different people in the areas they have traveled through and areas they have settled in. They have been persecuted throughout the world and bigotry against Roma is still acceptable in parts of the world. Due to prejudices.....like being denied education or jobs or being treated unfairly.....many people can live in abject poverty, sometimes there is crime as there is anywhere there is poverty and people who are denied legal forms of employment are driven to act in desperation to feed their families......which in turn feeds the negative stereotype.
There is a romanticized image here in the US as beautiful belly dancers due to movies like Beauty and the Beast, but I can assure you that many Roma or "gypsies" from other groups who actually had to deal with the reality of being a "gypsy" many times hide their identities or are very hesitant to reveal their true origins due to fear of bigotry and hatred, it still exists and it's a very complex, difficult issue to address. While there are many Roma that are proud, (and should be!) it's hard to always be open when you're either dealing with an extremely negative stereotype or people who have a cartoon character idea.
I think the offensive thing is when young women hoping to seem exotic, pretend to be gypsies or capitalize on another ethnic group's identity. An ethnic group that is fighting for acceptance for themselves to begin with.
I'm sure young women who are truly mesmerized by the idea of "being a gypsy," and don't mean harm, but you have to understand that you are playing up a stereotype, while the real "gypsies" are very often fighting stereotypes, and fighting for acceptance. There are people of Roma origin who are professionals, who are educated, who live just like you and don't run around belly dancing or wearing money in their hair. If there are poor Roma who are still making money off their folk dancing, I say good for them, but you might look a little deeper and find out if they really have a choice in the matter or are they just trying to capitalize on their own identity to make a little money since they know the image is so romanticized.....do you blame them if they have no better way to make money?
You have to understand these are people that have dealt with a lot for hundreds of years....some had to hide who they were to get educations or jobs, some still have to depending on where they live-how you do you think you would feel if you had to pretend you weren't who you were to just be treated fairly? How would you feel if you had to lie to your children about who they were? It's a bit insulting when a silly stereotype is used by someone who doesn't really understand where many Roma come from and what they have had to deal with for centuries. It's a little "Vanilla Ice."
After all, would you run around in a grass skirt and call your self "an African?"
And if there are people who truly do love and respect Roma culture, I think it's wonderful because it's great when there is positive attention drawn to an ethnic group that normally gets so much negativity, but......maybe do some research and learn about the real human rights issues that Roma/gypsies have to deal with and draw some attention to that since you are capitalizing off their image?

I am Romani.......i usually do not tell a lot of people this because tha way i was raised......
My parents would have probably killed me if they found out that i told a kid at school or a starger....this was reserved only to very close friends and doctors(if you could somehow bribe my folks to going to a doctor).
I personaly think that a lot of people do not know(still)what the word Romani means so they can at least put a picture on the word"gypsy".(Most of the time a wrong perspective as well)
In my opinion, all of the dance related words with the word "gypsy" are not related to the Rom at all but a false stylization of what the Rom should or are supposed to be. the word itself does not ofend ME at all, (I think that i have sadly become accustomed to it)What does ofend me is the stigma that unknowing people aply to the word "GYPSY".
Just my 2 cents!!!!
~shimmies~
Viorica

Up until this point I really had no idea that anyone got upset over the word "gypsy". Nearly my entire knowledge of "gypsies" has come from either movies, or rather badly written romantic fiction where the hero is a gypsy and the heroine isn't and DRAMA ENSUES.

I'm trying to see both sides of the argument. No one wants their culture to be derided. But, at the same time, I try not to be offended by someone when they don't KNOW they're being offensive. I'd venture a guess that most people who use the word "gypsy" have no idea that many people of that culture may find it offensive. And, also - according to a few of these posts - there are those people who are proud to be called gypsies and who don't see what the fuss is about.

I, personally, don't see anything inherently wrong with being a "gypsy" in a "gypsy camp" and whipping out a tambourine and a big skirt. On the other hand, I don't like it when I tell people I'm a bellydancer and the word "stripper" pops into their minds, because that CERTAINLY is not what bellydance is about. Seen from that perspective, I can sympathize with those people who get upset with how the word "gypsy" is often used so inaccurately.

For me, it all boils down to knowing who you have around you, if at all possible. For instance, I have a friend who reads Tarot cards, and when I'm hanging out with her I don't talk about how I think it's all rubbish. My brother plays WOW and when I talk with him I don't let him know what a waste of time I think it is. Both of my brothers don't enjoy bellydance at ALL, but they still come to my recitals and tell me I did great.

So...If I was friends with the person that Peter mentioned then I would know that he didn't mind me using the word "gypsy". If I was friends with Rom, I would no doubt know that to mention the word "gypsy" in her presence was a prelude to being tackled. I will agree to being sensitive of the people around me. I will *not* agree to changing my entire vocabulary, or becoming neurotically PC, because of what people I don't know MIGHT get offended by.

My two cents!

Generally, "gypsies" prefer to be called the Rroma.

in europe particularly france, us gadjos use the term Tsigane or Tzigane or Cigan often. i dont think gypsy's are too bothered but i personally wish i could use tsiganes for promotions in the uk rather than gypsy otherwise noone knows what i am talking about. same with 'balkan' but that is a whole other story...

remember alsoTaraf, Fanfare and Mahala are all featured on 'Electric gypsyland' which was produced by the guys at Crammed records - the label that mahala and taraf are on now. they're in the money so do they care if they are called 'gypsy brass'? i doubt it. Taraf's 2001 album is called 'band of gypsies'. and you have Kusturica's 'time of the gypsies' etc...if you havent seen kusturica (or gatlif) films...erm...you need to immediately.

gypsies have been treated like crap by society at large for sooooooo long i very much doubt they give a damn if we use the term- its a 'hard' culture. they dont need protecting in this way...'they' have plenty more to worry about and plenty of derogatory terms for non gypsies me thinks.

Tsiganes is much nicer though. :)